Episode highlights
00:01:42 – Meet Anfisa
00:03:47 – Where is the line between UX design and UX research?
00:06:48 – What Anfisa values most in collaboration with researchers
00:09:29 – Getting a second perspective to reset your mindset
00:12:16 – The ideal cooperation
00:15:12 – Do UX researchers make good PMs?
00:16:21 – What should you learn from UX researchers?
00:18:45 – Radical curiosity
00:24:10 – Should UX designers do research?
00:26:08 – Final advice from Anfisa
About our guest
Anfisa is a Senior Product Designer with 14h of experience, a host of the Honest UX Talks podcast, and the founder of IntoUX.design, a community for designers who want to stand out on the market and land dream jobs.
I feel like the line (between UX design and UX research) is blurring right now. And it's very hard to say what our jobs will look like a year from now.
Podcast transcript
[00:00:00] Anfisa Bogomolova: Every time I’m talking to designers who are interviewing, the narrative’s that, okay, designers are next front-end developers. Designers need to start building the front end. If design system is hooked up to cursor today, well, okay, great, now designers could actually build the UI and interfaces and whatever.
So it’s actually like changing the whole narrative
[00:00:26] Tina Ličková: Welcome to UXR Geeks, where we geek out with researchers from all around the world on topics they are passionate about. I’m your host, Jana Licikova, a researcher and a product manager, and this podcast is brought to you by UXtweak, the UX research platform for recruiting, contacting, analyzing, and sharing insights all in one place.
This is UX Arch Geeks, and you’re listening to a conversation that I had with Antesa, the host of Honest UX Talks, a product designer with 14 years across startups, scale-ups to hospitality tech, who built communities of people searching for jobs after the tech crisis started in 2023. In this episode, we lean into the relationship between designers and researchers.
We will try to draw a line, finding out there is no line under the circumstances of AI disrupting everything what we do. We talk bias, curiosity, and how this all comes together in corporations.
I don’t do introductions, and somebody from the audience was once telling me, like, “Why don’t you introduce your guests?” And I’m like, “No, that’s a basic right to be introduced by your own words.” And also what I am really interested to know, what is now happening in your life with the combination of who you are?
[00:01:55] Anfisa Bogomolova: All right. So let’s start with the quick bio. I’ll try to be brief. I’m a product designer. I have been designing for about 14 years now, starting with freelancing startups, then I was moving into corporates, and as of recently, last four years, I was working in scale-ups. My biggest passion was always education, so I helped a lot of designers because I personally struggle a little bit with, I would put it this way, poor mentorship in the beginning, and I felt traumatized by that, and I always felt like I really want to help people to not feel that experience when they enter the industry.
So I would say there are two parts of what I’m doing. One is education, one is designing. Most of the times I design for hospitality industry. First I launched a startup in this industry, then I worked in the restaurant hospitality, and now hotels. So it’s like the theme for me. But beyond that, right now on the topic of mentorship, I’m also running the community.
It’s been about two, three years s- since the beginning of tech crisis in 2023, where people started losing jobs, so I started, like, this community to support people in the journey to find a job and how to position themselves, how to stand out. And there’s a bunch of workshop we’re doing basically. So that’s that.
And I also have a toddler, so it’s another fun project of mine. I’m kidding. No, it’s a massive part of my life, which is definitely a struggle to balance all the projects beyond all the content that I’m sometimes trying to do and all the projects that I’m just trying to survive. So that’s that.
[00:03:20] Tina Ličková: Yeah. I, I didn’t expect a toddler to come up. I expected a podcast to come up. Oh. So this is important- Right. … also just you are the podcast host of Honest UX Talks.
[00:03:30] Anfisa Bogomolova: Yeah. You also talked.
[00:03:32] Tina Ličková: Yeah. We decided to talk about the relationship of designers and researchers.
[00:03:38] Anfisa Bogomolova: Yeah.
[00:03:39] Tina Ličková: Where do we draw the line between the researcher and a designer, if you could maybe explicate on that one?
[00:03:44] Anfisa Bogomolova: I guess my personal feeling is that the industry is changing right now massively, and I don’t think the line is necessary anymore. It probably will stay present in the next year or two, but I strongly believe that moving forward it’s not gonna be as important. The actual separate role will not be as important, ’cause look at the tech industry today, like the developers currently already feel threatened a lot.
Like, what are we actually doing? Like, my husband is the engineering manager. He manages, like, about 20 developers. He, during the weekend, spend a lot of time just, like, experimenting with the tools we have today with AI, and he’s realizing that, like, a year from now, I don’t know if he’ll have a job.
Probably there’s not gonna be a lot of need for the developers, and that’s just to say that it doesn’t mean that developer has to be a developer now. And obviously it’s clear why technology first came after development, because if you automate development, then every next industry will be easier to automate.
So we start with development, but that’s just to say, okay, developers are changing the skill set. They are evolving first ’cause there might not be a software engineer role per se. There have to be someone operating it, but we don’t need so many engineers anymore maybe in the future. Same will come after our jobs, like the design, the research, PM, et cetera, and I feel like the line is blurring right now, and it’s very hard to say what will our jobs look like a year from now.
Like today- Mm-hmm … every time I’m talking to designers who are interviewing, and even at my company where I just left, the narrative was that, okay, designers are next front-end developers. The designers needs to start building the front end. How do we position our designers so that they are strong in front end?
If design system is hooked up to cursor today, okay, great, now designers could actually build the UI and interfaces and whatever. So it’s actually, like, changing the whole narrative, and that also means that, okay, if we’re going back to the topic of research and product design, if maybe ultimately we all end up being creators in whatever form or shape, maybe thinking of the strategy of building the product and being able to articulate that what matters, and that’s a lot of the times what designers, researchers do.
For example, the researcher in, at Noose, where I was working the last four years, was past designer, and she switched to research. She became a very strategic researcher. Some people say she could, for example, make a great PM, so I feel like this industry is very various and you could take different shapes, if you will, and experiment with this, and it’s beautiful that we all experimenting right now.
It’s very interesting where it will all lead us.
[00:06:20] Tina Ličková: Mm-hmm. If I look into what I learned from PMs, what I learned from designers, you always learn from the people some traits or skills. And I know what I want to learn from designers. This is where I also realized I don’t want to do anymore just research, then that’s why I switched to a PM role because those skills amazed me, and like I could do this and I could do this really well, and it could enrich my professional life.
When you look at researchers and how you were working with them, what are the skills or even the traits of the cooperation that you would like to take into your personal professional future?
[00:06:59] Anfisa Bogomolova: I would say the researcher I worked with, she was very easily able to help me get out of my bubble, so she would think bigger.
As a product designer, I would be zoomed into the product, the feature, the area that I’m designing and focusing on. So I have all the knits and bits and nitty-gritty details around the area. I know too much maybe, and I would say, “But they know this, and they don’t like this, and they do this.” She would always come and say, “Forget about this.
Zoom out, and imagine there is no product.” Like, she would get me out of my bubble and reset the way I’m thinking about the problem. So it always helped me, the bird’s-eye view, but it also could be related to the organizational infrastructure we had in the company. We only had one researcher for a whole department.
So maybe you have five, six, maybe 10 designers and one researcher per the department, so she would oversee the whole area. She would understand how maybe the very abilities differ depending on the product unit, and it didn’t matter to her that she might not have the product knowledge so much or she didn’t have the nuance that I was trying to test in mind.
It would be always zoom out and really focus on the big picture, and that was helping me when I was preparing for the research She was also fantastic at, I would articulate some problem that is very specific and tactical. I could say, “But they don’t do this. They don’t need this,” like, blah, blah, blah. She would say, “Okay, you don’t think they like this interface, or they don’t use the interface?
Forget about interface. Bring the paper and try something else. Let’s kick out of this mode that you’re so focused on.” And that also helps me to reset. So it’s this bird’s-eye view that was really helpful to me personally. And also, I think the design lead I worked with had a very similar mindset. It’s very transferable, I guess, mindset.
[00:08:45] Tina Ličková: That’s interesting that you’re talking about research as of mindset. I probably understand it very similarly. And as the business is changing, I’m not saying we will completely lose the researcher’s role, but the connector that she was is a very strong one, connecting the dots and connecting also the people with their knowledge.
And having a research mindset is what comes to my mind. Uh, and as we are talking about these changes in our business, how do you think, as a designer without a researcher, for example, if you go to a new role, will you stay alert of, “Okay, I need to get out of my bubble. I need to have this research mind. I need to support it”?
[00:09:29] Anfisa Bogomolova: The practice will show if I were to start a new job, but I think at the end of the day, it will come down to we need people anyways. I don’t think that one person should do everything, at least not at the moment. And so I really would hope that every time I present something, I work on something, something helps me to reset my mindset.
If creative designer or creator, whoever, could do it, could be so self-aware and really reset themselves, maybe they could train the bot or whatever the tool that they will be using. But it would be fantastic if the person I work with, somebody in my design team, my design lead, my whoever around me, even an engineering manager maybe, could help me to point out things because if you are so stuck in details, somebody has to get you out of that bubble.
So I would rely on people. It doesn’t mean that it has to be research only, at least in my experience. We could also take advantage of the tools today. For example, AI. As the year was finishing, 2025 was finishing, there was this very popular wave of year review on this tool, on that tool. And last year, I was using more ChatGPT.
This year, I’m switching to Claude. But ChatGPT was basically saying that, “Your interview, you were constantly asking me to challenge you and, like, to change the perspective.” So you would always try to get this, what am I not seeing in my thinking, and I would look for something, like could it be in the tool?
Could it be in the person? Could it be in whoever I’m working with to see something I’m not seeing in whoever I’m collaborating with? I guess if I would be in a new role, and I would be the only one, would have to rely on AI to pinpoint what I’m not seeing.
[00:11:00] Tina Ličková: We’ll be right back after a short break with a commercial message from our sponsors.
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Interesting because it’s going a little bit of the psychological route, like not being self-absorbed and having yourself check, “Oh, I could be in my bubble. I have to recheck.” Yep. “I have to keep asking the question what I am not seeing. Tell me, challenge me, I challenge you,” and keeping this in the loop.
This brings me to the question of an ideal cooperation you would wish with research as a role or with somebody who is taking it as a part of their role.
[00:12:26] Anfisa Bogomolova: To be honest with you, I don’t really care what’s the role of the person I’m working with. I don’t know. I would expect this from researcher, from design manager, from engineering manager, from an engineer, whoever I’m working with, is this partnerships.
Like, I would focus on this, you focus on this, let’s do it together. So this synergy and it’s splitting the work. If the time Is at the essence, which it is right now a little bit. How do we split the work that we support and elevate each other? With research, obviously, I would rely more on connecting the dots, like you said.
I would like to be more strategic as well if my role would allow me. But whoever I’m working with, I just look for that synergy to elevate each other and pinpoint something I’m not seeing, research management or engineering, et cetera, just to know I’m not in this alone, basically. And it’s becoming a little bit lonelier right now because the roles are blurring, and I don’t know what to expect from this year.
So from researchers, honestly, just let’s do it together mindset. How do we do this best? What I’m not seeing, what do you help me with? It’s this human connection that sometimes AI is, for example, not able to provide. It’s very robotic. It’s not very human. There is a lack of reading between the lines, and it’s what maybe human connection working with a researcher could help me with, personally, at least.
I don’t know. What about you? What do you think the collaboration should feel like, look like with the research and design?
[00:13:47] Tina Ličková: I would say what is happening to me in the last more than a half a year is I took my research practice and research experience and put it into a PM role. I have been talking to a friend who got told that researchers are probably not the best PMs, which was surprising to me because we have this focus, we have the empathy for the people.
We see sometimes a lot of stuff behind what people tell you and in between the lines and the needs. We are just trained for it. Thank God I have a boss who challenges me on things, and she always brings a very different perspective.
[00:14:24] Anfisa Bogomolova: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:24] Tina Ličková: So this critical thing and this human thing of challenging each other, as you are saying, is really important.
And having researchers reminding me of, okay, you can do as much synthetic data or research through AI, but you need the human contact because the emotions that you see is going to impact me as well. I am thinking researchers last instance to be in contact with the people as well because nothing makes such a emotional impact on you, and it’s important to have this emotional impact also on your decisions.
They have to be influenced by other people views and feelings, and if there are eight or 10 people being pissed off about something, it should be influencing as a PM researcher designer no matter what.
[00:15:12] Anfisa Bogomolova: I would be surprised to hear that researcher is not well positioned for the PM role because I feel like strategic researchers are probably best positioned for the PM roles.
I also feel like there is this nuance that a lot of PMs might not be having and research could actually bring if you would have this background. A lot of PMs maybe are expected to be more technical. Mm-hmm. So that’s maybe the gap to be fulfilled from the research perspective. But at the same time, I feel, yeah, that the researchers bring a lot of value as the PMs.
I tried to be a PM last summer, by the way, as well. For about four months because we were missing the PM in my team, and it was quite interesting. I really enjoyed the communications with the team, and to be honest, I’m still reflecting on how it went down because there were wins and losses in my part.
But I feel like, yeah, the communication and empathy and conversations and collaboration was the biggest part of it. And if researcher is up to the challenge, especially when it comes to communication up level, because as a PM you also get the resources for different efforts, then it’s being much more strategic as well positioned.
Yeah, as a designer, it was a lesson for me, for example.
[00:16:19] Tina Ličková: If you could get a training from researchers on something or being supported in something doing by yourself, what would it be? What would you not wish for, but would you go into training for?
[00:16:34] Anfisa Bogomolova: I don’t even know anymore because with the speed of AI right now, it’s really tricky.
I’m a little bit lost around where do we go, how do we shape it? Because honestly, again, I did a lot of research in the past, not only as a designer, but also as entrepreneur working on those like content projects I’m working on. And I still feel there is the bias that I hold as a product designer that researcher helped me with.
What kind of trainer there could be, I’m not sure, but I do know that it’s the outside perspective that helps me. There is always something I’m not seeing and from the research perspective, maybe how to reset my mindset. And it also is a personal thing, right? Because each one of us have personal quirks, how we work, and I tend to go very zoomed into, so I need somebody to help me to point something that I’m not seeing and give me a perspective.
But when it comes to, for example, my personal business, I don’t have a problem. I only have the problem when I’m working as a product designer. For example, when I’m doing research for my personal projects, I’m much more passionate about something and I’m so sincerely eager to learn that I don’t feel any blocks or anything that could bias my choices.
But when it comes to product design as an industry where I’m working within the enterprise, maybe I’m being measured, right? Like there are other enterprise layers that come into play, and so I’m also trying to do a good job, and that sometimes affects the way I’m thinking and the way I’m doing the research, and sometimes I’m trying to ask the right questions.
And outside of the bubble, I’m not feeling that. And so it’s very different how I perform depending on the context. And when it comes to research helping me, it’s helping me to have the researcher to make sure I remove those layers.
[00:18:10] Tina Ličková: Mm-hmm. And this is maybe a very interesting insight for researchers out there.
Coming from the role you approach research very differently And with different levels of passion, and the, you have different amount of time for it as well. And I’m completely resonating with it because I feel that research is helping me now way more than I, when I do standalone projects as a research contractor.
And I am as a PM more passionate about it. That’s why I resonate with it. And I’m not sure if this passion is not a bias on its own.
[00:18:44] Anfisa Bogomolova: Yeah. I’m 100% sure that when I’m coming with so much drive and passion, quote unquote, my favorite word, it’s carrying that bias. But at the same time, I feel like I’m paying so much more attention during those sessions, and I’m trying, of course, to have the granola notes- Right
to then look back into how it was perceived. But it’s much more curiosity, like how people live. Tell me more. Forget about the research agenda. Talk to me through your days, what shapes your motivation. Like, so much more eagerness to understand people rather than we’re talking professional, this is the business context, talk me about your day in your work setting, et cetera.
I’m much more driven to build connections because I’m a business owner as well. And because of that, I really want to understand really how do I help you? Like, how do I solve your problem? And it’s building those connections. Of course, they come with the bias, but it’s also building that connection that I’m really learning, oh, that is why.
There is so much more in between the lines that I would not be able to get out of the conversation if it would be professional setup. For example- Yeah … I was working in a hospitality industry with the hotels, and I’m talking to this serious chain of hotels, very corporate, and very professionally correct and politically correct, and I would not be able to connect with them in that almost, like, friendly way because it’s a very different setting.
And when I’m asking questions, they are much more prepared, I guess. That’s the words. Mm-hmm. I cannot run out of my agenda, and let’s switch the course. Tell me more about this. I try, sometimes it helps when the mood is right, but it’s not the common thing. So I feel very different level of enthusiasm and insight I’m receiving through those different setups.
[00:20:17] Tina Ličková: Do you think it’s also because of the B2B and B2C context?
[00:20:20] Anfisa Bogomolova: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah.
[00:20:22] Tina Ličková: Okay. That makes a lot of sense. When you are talking now about it, and we were talking about the bias- question is what do you, as somebody who is doing research and has this two kind of very unique experiences and compare them, how do you keep yourself and your head running into solutions right away?
[00:20:44] Anfisa Bogomolova: You mean when I’m, for example, interviewing someone and I have a lot of ideas- Yeah … oh, this is about this.
[00:20:48] Tina Ličková: Yeah.
[00:20:50] Anfisa Bogomolova: Mmm, it’s interesting. I don’t have this anymore. I used to have that mindset before. Mm. Haven’t experienced it for years now. And mostly I’m trying to approach it with, like, curiosity, unless I’m scared and unless I’m, like, performing.
Sometimes there is a research as a performative act, as like a strategic research that you’re doing just to satisfy the customers you’re having. So when it’s not that, when I’m really interested in hearing how people think, how people operate, and what shapes their actions, I have, of course, topics that I have in mind, but the less questions I have, the less preparation I have, the better the conversation usually flows.
I do have the key things I need to learn, but sometimes they take turns, and I’m happy to jump onto those turns. And to me, it’s just I’m so curious that I forget about thinking through the solutions. I’m just immersed in this conversation. I’m in this, like, listening mode, basically. It’s like the hat I’m wearing that I don’t feel that I have a lot of ideas at that particular moment.
I could write it down, like the theme and insight is something to dig into further, but the ideas don’t come natural to me because I’m in this, like, very listening mode and I don’t have enough energy to process it as into idea. I feel like these are different mindsets, so if I focus more on this empathy lesson learning mindset, then I don’t have bandwidth to focus on ideation mindset.
[00:22:05] Tina Ličková: Very fascinating because I just spent two days workshopping, and what was told there is that we lost in our work genuine interest in people, in the big corporations, and also in society. We are speaking a lot about radical tender, radical honesty, but what you are pointing out is the radical curiosity Like you really shut down everything because you are there at the moment very consciously focusing on the person with very deep source of curiosity.
I’m deeply touched by it. Is there anything that I didn’t ask you and I should have been asking you, or you didn’t have a possibility to tell me? That’s my, one of my favorite questions in every interview.
[00:22:52] Anfisa Bogomolova: I actually would be more curious to hear your perspectives about, like, where do we draw the line, honestly.
That’s the only question I would have to you because you also have the perspective, especially now as the PM, and you wearing different head and probably collaborating with designers. Do you feel like designers could or should do the research? Do you feel like PMs should be doing the research? Do you feel like we still have to have a separate role for research?
Where are you standing right now?
[00:23:15] Tina Ličková: Honestly, it’s a big unknown for me right now. Yeah. Like everybody. To s- to tell you, oh, this is how it should be, I would be very arrogant to tell that. But where I feel researchers will be always needed are when you need to go deep down, when there is, I don’t know, strategic research studies where you need to understand the people and the emotions and interpret it for the companies in a way that they understand.
I know there is a lot of debate in the research circles about how are roles changing, but it’s going into the knowledge management type of thing of I have to be able to make sure that the knowledge that I gather is smoother running and synchronizing between the people. Yeah.
[00:24:01] Anfisa Bogomolova: Yeah.
[00:24:02] Tina Ličková: This is also very important thing. But when it comes to it, I don’t know. I probably did tell you something totally different few months ago when we did your podcast.
[00:24:10] Anfisa Bogomolova: Designers focus on quantitative stuff. Researchers focus on the quality stuff. We felt like the researchers focus on qualitative. Designers maybe come with bias, so let’s just keep them more, like, listening rather than running the research.
And I don’t know. I’m very curious to see if that will change, to be honest, moving forward because, again, the roles are becoming reshaped right now. I’m very curious because I know we as designers, especially if we are very passionate about design, if we are, like, so eager to see how our product’s being perceived by our customers, that could obviously bias the way you noticed something And so it’s interesting because, again, I feel like as a product designer within the organization, I perform differently when it comes to comparing it to my personal projects, where I feel like it’s your baby and then you don’t have to worry about performing anything.
You’re just really curious. It’s very different, and you notice … At least I personally feel like I’m noticing more and more important stuff rather than when it is within the organization. But it’s also personal. Everybody perceives and behaves differently in different contexts. So I’m interested if in the future designers will start doing more qualitative research, and if the quality of that would be different.
[00:25:23] Tina Ličková: It’s a hard question because it’s always very painful to look at people when they are asking really bad questions, badly framed, or even manipulative and stuff like that, and they somehow don’t wanna have the training for doing it better. But I also feel that where it’s coming from, if it’s coming from somebody, and I will name a PM, who wants to persuade a user that this is a great product, this is how their interview will look like, and it’s coming from the place of deep curiosity, then there it’s a conversation.
As you said, not really scripted, but it’s coming from, “Okay, we have a conversation, and I’m really curious to learn about you and your experience, life experience even.” So yeah.
[00:26:04] Anfisa Bogomolova: Exactly.
[00:26:05] Tina Ličková: Is there any kind of advice that you would have for our audience?
[00:26:08] Anfisa Bogomolova: This is where my bias comes in. I feel extremely, like, shocked by the last months in terms of the tool development, and I personally feel like if you haven’t installed Cursor and Claude Code onto your computer yet and didn’t start using it, you’re missing out a lot.
Doing the research and starting talking about it and starting processing information with the help with the latest models of Claude Code, it’s must now. I feel like this industry is completely changing right now. It’s crazy, and I hate to be the one, like, who is hyping things up, but it’s necessary. And yeah, personally, I feel very scared for how this future looks like and excited at the same time.
So my advice is just to get to it. Don’t ignore it. Don’t postpone it. Don’t say, “I have … I’m tired, I’m busy,” and whatever. Just try it. You have to try.
[00:26:55] Tina Ličková: Yeah. Beautiful. I could talk for another hour, right… but I know the toddler needs your attention as well. I had a beautiful time. Thank you, thank you for coming to my podcast.
And yeah, where can people follow you?
[00:27:07] Anfisa Bogomolova: LinkedIn or Instagram should be just perfect. Or Honest UX Talks, that’s where I’m talking a lot about design.
[00:27:13] Tina Ličková: Thank you.
[00:27:15] Anfisa Bogomolova: Thank you.
[00:27:20] Tina Ličková: Thank you for listening to UXR Geeks. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow our podcast and share it with your friends and colleagues. Your support is really what keeps us going.
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