Episode highlights
00:01:09 – About Anne
00:05:57 – Being an African-centered designer
00:07:51 – Technology is never neutral
00:13:18 – Tech and education
00:15:43 – Silent harms of technology
00:19:19 – Arming the users with the right information
00:22:43 – Using technology to achieve goals
00:23:50 – Final thoughts
About our guest
Anne is a UX designer with a background in training, design, and business development in technology. She enjoys using research, storytelling, and thoughtful design to make complex systems easier to understand, especially in emerging and decentralized technologies where education and empathy really matter.
All screen time is not equal. As you're using technology, it has to be geared towards achieving your goals, not replacing them. 
Podcast transcript
[00:00:00] Tina Ličková: Welcome to UXR Geeks, where we geek out with researchers from all around the world and topics they’re passionate about. I’m your host Tina, a researcher and a product manager, and this podcast is brought to you by UXtweak, the UX research platform for recruiting, conducting, analyzing, and sharing insights all in one place.
This is UXR geeks, and you are listening to a conversation I had with Anne who moved from teaching into research and product management in the African tech scene. We got into the silent harms of technology and how products are often designed to be addictive at the expense of our mental state. It’s an interesting look at how we can empower users with the right information to navigate addictive platforms and handle tech so they can stay connected to the real world.
So if you’re curious about a more conscious use of technology. Tune in. This intro was created with ai. What is your overall story when it comes to design UX research, personal story with this field.
[00:01:16] Anne Njoroge: So mine is an interesting one. I started out in teaching and then I told one of my mentors that I don’t think I’m a fit here because I’d want to embed a bit more tech into my work, and I’m usually more focused onto the wellbeing of the individuals.
My priorities are not dreams. Generally speaking, I’m not required for the normal curriculum. So I was not a fit in most of the schools where I taught for about two, four years or so. So I told one of my mentors that I’m looking for a role. I dunno how I’m gonna get it to get into tech. By them. Good luck.
One of my mentor knew someone who was setting up an innovation lab, and that is at Africa’s Talking. They had an innovation lab, and that is back in 2019. And I made an application and I was hired in business ops. So at that time I was also pursuing my master’s at Strathmore. So you find with business operations.
Quite a couple of people can do it with just a bit of handholding, you can dive into it. It was a steep learning curve, but I really enjoyed it. So in the innovation lab, that’s why we were trying to build billion dollar business in Africa. We had a cloud company, we had an SMS company, multiple companies in incubation, and now my job was to support the founders in their research and in their marketing strategies and endeavors.
So I did that for less than a year or so, and then my boss was like, would you like to learn more about what we do at Africa’s Talking? Because one of the employees had resigned. So I was given an opportunity to do product management for the airtime. And payments products at Africa stocking. So that entailed ensuring the business front and the technical arm of the product are both growing.
When I got in, we had four markets in place, and then by the time I was done with that role, we had coverage in over 16 African markets. So something that I’m pretty. Proud of, just by virtue of the partnerships that I’ve brought on board, working with the engineering team very strategically. I’m grateful for just having been a part of that story.
Then I think with my background, it occurred to me that I need to be able to contribute significantly to the. Product building cycle. And that can only happen when I fully understand one aspect, be it engineering infrastructure or the design part of things. And I also needed professionally to be in a place where I can work on my own, like I can stand on my two feet and I can also.
Build a career with what I’m doing. So that’s how I ended up in research and everything design. So I told my HR that I’d love to move to the design team because I’ve pretty much been doing a lot of research work and a lot of market and user research. They usually allowed interdepartmental movement because it was not like, uh, those.
Big tech companies by then. We had one lady called Jeri, was our head of research and design, and we’d worked with Hy a couple project and she was like, okay, you still have some learning to do, but if you believe in yourself, I’m going to endorse here. And I’m always grateful for the grace card shared, you know, the chance given and I ran with it.
So I think that’s how I began my. Design journey. Did a lot of user research on multiple products designed, did their whole shebang, the prototyping, the UI, and products went to market. Others did. Did a bit of consulting on various government projects and whatnot, and. Enjoyed it and I’m grateful for the fact that I have a career that allows me to understand the world better.
[00:05:16] Tina Ličková: That’s price. Like we were talking a year ago, that was something that I really appreciated in the topic that you came up with. I’m just very curious where in you. Does it come from? Or where’s the spot where you were like, okay, let’s talk about the African centric design point of view. Because my perspective as a European, but in the part of the Europe, which was laid or brought to European Union is post communistic stuff.
I feel like sometimes overall by the Western perspective, so it’s more like a pushback. But speaking to you, I think it’s coming from a different place.
[00:05:57] Anne Njoroge: I think it’s just I’m a human centered designer. So if there’s Africa, then you’re here to ensure everyone can utilize the message that you’re passing forth or the product.
We are very big on shared prosperity. I am. Because you are now, when I’m just looking at a common user who’s. Engaging with tech day in, day out, like what would be a good ground? Where all of us can start having this conversation. Because as more people get aware on some of the unspoken dangers that lie with using technology, it becomes easier to have these conversations.
That’s how change begin. It’s gradual. It’s one person at a time.
[00:06:42] Tina Ličková: What I found also interesting is what are you influenced by and how does it maybe influence your. Work.
[00:06:50] Anne Njoroge: So you find in Africa there’s a lot of thinking around shared prosperity and communalism where we want everyone to do well. So an example I’d give if there’s a patch of land where farming is occurring.
We would do a lot of, it’s called crop rotation, just to ensure that the land is not also exhausted of its nutrients. We believe everything in the universe is interconnected. So how are we looking out for the wellbeing of the animals? The wellbeing of the land, the wellbeing of everyone involved in this game called life.
So in the context of tech, I think what has been going through my mind is the common everyday users of technology. How are they being negatively affected? Is it possible for us to start naming some of these things that we’ve normalized and just identifying them and raising awareness that this is not how it should be.
This is how. This platform is harming you. One thing that clicked just recently is that tech is not neutral, just like any other force. Tech is not neutral, and it’s been designed to be very addictive and it’s something that we all need to be cognizant of as. Interacting with it. It’s a world of its own.
Yes, I’m a user experience designer. I want people on my platform, but they also need to be armed with the knowledge that’s necessary to ensure that they’re also flourishing in their lives. They’re not getting health challenges, professional challenges, just because they’re stuck on the platform that I’ve designed.
I would love them to have that information. I think one of the things that we’ve normalized nowadays, it’s how we. Get easily distracted just the way you’re checking your phone and before you know it, an hour is gone. And for most of us, we don’t think that’s an issue that needs to be addressed, but it’s what is called a brain rot, and that is the deterioration of your mental and emotional capacity by virtue of the fact that you are interacting with a lot of.
Useless information online, which is digital junk. And some of the ways we see this being evident in our day-to-day is, I’d say a doom scrolling. I’m sure you have friends who are very big on sharing what’s happening in Germany. Australia’s burning down. They’re very excited to share that information.
There’s also mindless scrolling where you find, you’re in a meeting, you are having a conversation. Do you. Just sit down for a minute or two to engage. There’s also people who’ve gotten addicted to gaming, so they cannot live their life outside of their games. They want to be Spider-Man. They want to be Batman, and we see this a lot with young children as they’re growing up, depending on the kind of technology that you’ve exposed them to, you’d find that they really want to be that person so they don’t get to develop into their own person.
Their own interest and whatnot. Last but not least, this is the social media addiction. What are you looking at on WhatsApp? We don’t know. What are you looking at on Telegram? We don’t know. What are you looking to achieve after one hour, two hours of being on LinkedIn or on Instagram? I think so. I think it’s the important that we are able to have these conversations because tech is going to be an integral part of our lives.
In the present days and in the days ahead. So how are we going to coexist without rubbing our own potential as individuals without living less lives? Mm-hmm. How do we engage with tech in a profitable manner? I think it’s important that we are able to have that conversation over and over in various platforms.
[00:10:37] Tina Ličková: We’ll be a right back after a short break with a commercial message from our sponsors. Hey you. It’s our, gee, how are you doing? You know that good research isn’t just about running studies. It’s about getting real insights without getting stuck in the process. That’s why I often use UXtweak, not just because they support this podcast, but because the tool is actually simple and easy to.
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I have a question there as you have the teaching background. It doesn’t really matter if you are teaching kids, young adults or adults. I know about my own addiction. I sometimes struggle with, is this really an addiction or I am just trying to wind down with watching way too many dog videos. But I am an adult.
I can decide when I was 14, 15, the internet was becoming a thing, so it wasn’t present in my whole life. From the beginning. Yeah. But when I saw. A 3-year-old talking to me while he was watching a YouTube video, just pushing it down, then rolling it all over again to the whole screen. I was like, whoa. This is a completely different way with technology.
What I am now seeing in WhatsApp groups as WhatsApp is also offering the business groups and the influencer groups. I see young girls and young boys having their own influencers WhatsApp channels, and I. Honestly, dunno what to think about it. Because for them it’s very normal to have them. They’re also super boring, those channels because it’s usually, I’m going to school, look at my book, whatever.
There is nothing really disturbing in them. It’s just the way how they overshare in their lives. So my question would be, where do think is the line? Where we should be thinking like this is the new thing and the new ways for the youth and we should be designing for that. And when there is the other side of the line where it’s, oh, but we are not teaching enough skills.
To the people and especially to the young ones,
[00:13:18] Anne Njoroge: countries like Sweden, you find that there were the early adopters of EdTech back in the day, and right now they’re back to blackboard and chalk. As you know why they noticed that that is from the 2010. There’re about they noticed that the grades are going down.
They’re not even able to do simple arithmetic. They’re not able to grasp that. And so you find that most of the countries that went ahead of the game, right now, they’re coming back to removing tech outta the classroom. So what I would say is that it’s important that we are intentional with guarding, developing minds because for most of us in our thirties and forties and late twenties.
We are struggling with handling this. What about young developing minds? Is it possible for us to ensure that they develop other interests in lives and they also get their frontal developed before they get exposed to technology that even us, we’re struggling, we’re struggling with it, but we’ve been able to achieve a few things in life.
But now you find even in the West, in America and whatnot, you find that many teachers are living the profession mainly because that. Most children, the ones who’ve been exposed to screen time, that is public knowledge. A lot of parents are getting to be aware of the fact that there’s delay in developing communication skills and social interaction skills from age three to five.
You find that many of them. Are very hard to handle in a classroom setting. They cannot be instructed. They’re hyper in class. They have neurodiversity issues, A D, H, D, and whatnot. So I think it’s upon us to take responsibility and protect the generations to come. Because we’ve seen the harm that it can restore on young minds.
[00:15:10] Tina Ličková: How would you say we, as designers and UX researchers, should be handling this responsibility? Because one is the personal level where you can limit the screen time, you can hack your own wellbeing. But what is it for us who are creating products that we wanna sell, that we wanna be successful, that we.
Don’t manipulate and that we are setting the guardrails in the company and that the guardrails are being accepted as well.
[00:15:43] Anne Njoroge: What’s important is to ensure that our users are well equipped to know what’s good and what’s not good for them. They have the information like don’t sell them a knife without telling them that this can cut your fingers.
So with technology, I think it’s just getting to that place of raising enough awareness on the. Silent harm that technology can cause to the users. It boils down to the users. To be responsible with their use of technology, because I would say for us, everyone has a job to do. It’s just the same way when you’re crossing a road.
We all need this reels. We need the infrastructure, we need the internet, we need the multiple products that are being created, but we have red lights, we have the walking zone. We have infrastructure put in place to ensure that the pedestrians are safe and there’s information on drivers. This is how you engage with pedestrians.
Same case with tech. I think what’s needed is to create awareness on what we can coexist with technology and still maintain our humanity and. Elevate our productivity as individuals. And here I’m looking at things like ensuring that there’s enough information out there on the dangers. For example, the technical fatigue.
We all deal with that. So what does it look like to be able to. You stay connected to nature in the sense that as I’m doing this, I also need a human interaction. I also need to be connected to nature because that’s my wiring as a human being. Putting limits on how much time you’re spending on internet.
And here we’re looking at screen time limits. You find that if you’re spending four hours every day, just mindlessly scrolling, those are two months. Full, 24 hours, two months gone. Mm-hmm. Zero productivity, you cannot account for your time. And also just you find in countries like South Korea and China, it’s mandatory for kids to spend two hours in nature.
And that’s a way to. Digitally talks.
[00:17:54] Tina Ličková: I have to be honest, I’m struggling exactly with China in this regard because China is not exactly the most democratic if it’s coming from the government. I’m also skeptical. You actually made such a beautiful metaphor. What is actually the guy rails when pointing out like, yeah, you are crossing the street or you are the driver, but that there’s an infrastructure.
I love it because it’s actually pointing out like, yes, it’s an infrastructure, it’s a ecosystem, not just your products in it. So I, I get why you’re mentioning China as an example for what it is, but also we have TikTok coming from China, which is super addictive.
[00:18:36] Anne Njoroge: Yeah. That’s why I’m saying we have to empower users with the necessary tools, with the necessary information user be want.
This tool is addictive. After 35 minutes of usage, your dopamine, you’re gonna get stuck here. You need to handle it with caution. This is how you make the most out of it.
[00:18:55] Tina Ličková: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:56] Anne Njoroge: I think that’s what I’d say.
[00:18:57] Tina Ličková: Yeah. To bring our funnel to an end, or to some practicalities you are mentioning. But what I really love, and I would like you to explicate on it, is encourage shared screens a little bit more there, because this is a thing I think is groundbreaking when looking at it like how do we actually make responsible products?
[00:19:19] Anne Njoroge: You see the internet is a a while of its own that we’ve not yet discovered all the endpoints, so to speak. So that means we are physically protecting our users or even our children. I’m very big on family at the moment. It enables me to think differently in the sense that I can protect my child over here, but I can’t protect them online.
So I think even in a family setting, encourage people to use shared screens. Stop giving kids gadgets early on. Give them time to grow other interests, to connect, to develop their social skills before. You hook them up to something that’s going to be destructive in the long term. We all know foundational digital harms that have been raised in all of our social media include things like sleep deprivation, attention fragmentation, social deprivation, behavioral addiction.
And here, when you’re looking at attention fragmentation, it’s the fact that you’re not able to focus. So you can imagine a conversation with a 3-year-old who’s on YouTube. Is it possible to just give them a chance to enjoy the childhood? And that’s on us as the users. We need to be armed with the right information.
The fact that most of us are getting exposed to a lot of blue light. We have notifications going. On lack and centers sleeping with your gadgets. There’s distractions on go around. That’s a recipe for anxiety and other mental health disorders, social deprivation. You find many people just because they’re hooked to their gadgets, they’re not interacting with other people, and you find that.
Gradually, they’re not able to develop the necessary skills that are needed to be connected with the broader world, to look for jobs, to find friends, and those are the things that we need in this realm. I think just being intentional and more conscious about our usage because there’s no way you’re going to be an odd self.
Don’t feed. By the same time, I know your job requires you to be on Telegram, but just is it possible to set up a structure where you check your charts every two hours? Just being conscious of how am I using this? Is it building me or is it breaking me down?
[00:21:32] Tina Ličková: Why I am a little bit skeptical about. How addictive it is and how much of responsibility as a user you can have and you can apply is that I am supposedly HDHD.
I’m very critical to the diagnosis because everybody seems to get it right now, but then it’s, I am off Facebook from 2017. I’m off Instagram 2020. I am restricting my LinkedIn usage to 15 minutes a day, and I am trying to figure out how to put focus. That I’m not holding my phone all the time, but I always, as a user, find something to be addicted about.
Nowadays, it’s like I am big into nutrition, so I’m switching between AI models and AI tools. I am on daily basis talking with an AI assistant about my nutrition, and it’s helping. It’s helping my digestion, it’s helping my weight, it’s helping my training, everything like it has very positive, but. The more I speak to it, the more I’m spending time on my telephone overall on WhatsApp, on other stuff like that.
[00:22:42] Anne Njoroge: What would I advice, I like the fact that you’re using technology to achieve your goal. You see, all screen time is not equal in this particular scenario. Okay. When you are on Instagram, ’cause just random sheet walking, hoping from one club to another, but right here, you, you are walking towards something tangible.
So I think also just being able to define that, that on screen time is not equal as you’re using technology. It has to be geared towards achieving your goals, not replacing them.
[00:23:13] Tina Ličková: Okay.
[00:23:13] Anne Njoroge: Yeah.
[00:23:13] Tina Ličková: That’s a really good framing and I feel less guilty. Thank you.
[00:23:17] Anne Njoroge: I think even just being conscious of FAP stay, for example, you’re looking towards keeping enough, getting enough sleep for the night.
How about just having your phone by the side and muting them. Notifications or turning on d and d because blue light is going to make you stay awake longer. Right?
[00:23:34] Tina Ličková: Yeah.
[00:23:34] Anne Njoroge: So as you’re using that technology, is it possible for you to find ways of reducing the stimulation when you’re going to rest?
[00:23:43] Tina Ličková: Yeah.
[00:23:43] Anne Njoroge: Yeah.
[00:23:43] Tina Ličková: Is there anything that I didn’t ask you or we didn’t touch upon when it comes to this topic?
[00:23:50] Anne Njoroge: I think we’ve touched on it. My objective and the intention as we’re setting up this conversation is just to raise more awareness on some of the silent humps that use of tech can cause, and now letting the users take this to the next level research.
How’s WhatsApp affecting me? How is it affecting my relationships? How is it affecting my productivity? How is it affecting my studies as an individual? And my parting shirt would be if it’s free. You’re the product.
[00:24:21] Tina Ličková: Yeah. I wanna emphasize again, building the infrastructure, the guardrails for using it as well.
Using for the goal that the user is trying to achieve, because it’s not about engaging them all the time when they’re trying to achieve the goal, but really making it easy and non distractable. To achieve the goal.
[00:24:43] Anne Njoroge: Absolutely.
[00:24:44] Tina Ličková: Thank you very much. This was lovely.
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